[PrintOwners] [OFF] Armenian genocide

Sat Oct 6 11:03:14 EDT 2007

Steve -

Except for your comments about John's motivations, your points are very well
made, and I view most of them as substantively unarguable.

Having said that, your comments about John's motivations consititute an "ad
hominem" argument that doesn't address the issues he raised, and, if John's
comments can be interpreted as "political axe sharpening," so could yours -
and that would be just as useless.

He asked the simple question, "Did the early Europeans Settlers in the
United States learn these same methods when they forced Native Americans off
their lands?" (to which you seem to be answering, quite reasonably, "It's
not that simple") and made the simple statement, "Our hands are not clean,"
which, under that "sins of the fathers" theory, they aren't.  That others,
including the Indians, have fathers with extremely bloody hands diminishes
the blood on our fathers' hands not a whit.

Parenthetically, I don't buy into the "sins of the fathers" theory, in part
because it could be used to justify reparation requests from descendant of
our collective predecessors' former slaves.  (A group of black separatists
came into our shop to have some printing done several years ago, and I swore
to them that I'd been out of town - visiting relatives in Cleveland - during
the entire pre-abolition period...I also ask them if I could reduce the
amount they thought I owed by giving them a discount.)

Dan
Sir Speedy Printing Center
5845 Hollywood Boulevard
Hollywood, FL 33021
tel. 954.962.1309
fax 954.962.1366
dan at myprinter.biz
www.myprinter.biz

 -----Original Message-----
From: printowners-bounces at printweb.org
[mailto:printowners-bounces at printweb.org]On Behalf Of Steve Blatman
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 5:53 PM
To: Discussion List for Printing Business Owners Only
Subject: RE: [PrintOwners] [OFF] Armenian genocide

***** This is a PrintOwners List Message *****

Oh, John, stop grinding a political axe when the data diverge from
your position. Every time people of more advanced technology have
encountered more primitive people, the result has been pretty much
the same. The people we call American Indians (which is a term no
more or less correct than the current PC favorite you used) displaced
those who were here before them, as has happened throughout human
history.

The American Indians gave as well as got, when they came in contact
with Europeans. In fact, they did very well, considering the
difference in technology. There is a VAST difference between people
dying in combat (and, yes, the American Indians considered European
settlers to be combatants, and the settlers reciprocated
correspondingly--American Indians did not recognize "civilian
noncombatants" as a category) and civilians being herded into gas
chambers. There isn't a shred of moral equivalence between the two
cases.

And don't start about the Mississippian civilization decimated by
disease. Germs don't have a conscience, and there is no moral
justification to consider the spread of disease as a deliberate act
in this case. And don't start on African slavery, either. Every human
society throughout history has kept slaves, including the American
Indians. The only human society that has ever existed that has done
away with slavery (and on moral grounds, to boot) is that of the
Judeo-Christian Europeans, and the American extension thereof.

Sorry, but I really have difficulty with people who misrepresent the
data in the name of multiculturalism. Some cultures ARE superior to
others, in their moral standards, the liberty they afford to their
individual members, their ability to facilitate the augmentation and
spread of human knowledge, and myriad other measures. This is not say
that every individual in such a society exhibits exemplary behavior
(some exhibit truly reprehensible behavior), nor is it to say that no
individuals in other societies behave ethically. It just says that
some societies produce a greater good for humankind than others, on
average. I can't stand people misrepresenting the data to "show" that
more repressive cultures are more admirable than freer cultures.

Steve

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.

>
> Did the early Europeans Settlers in the United States learn these same
> methods when they forced Native Americans off their lands?  Our hands are
> not clean.
>
> John A. Gross
> Technigraphics, Inc.
> PO Box 1846
> Iowa City, Iowa 52244
> jgross at techiowa.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: printowners-bounces at printweb.org
> [mailto:printowners-bounces at printweb.org] On Behalf Of Robert Stor
> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 10:48 AM
> To: Discussion List for Printing Business Owners Only
> Subject: Re: [PrintOwners] [OFF] Armenian genicide
>
> ***** This is a PrintOwners List Message *****
>
> Dan,
>
> The story is a little more complicated, as are all stories in that part
> of the world.
>
> By no means do I mean to minimize the horrendousness of it, nor do I see
> it as a justification for the Armenian holocaust, but you should also
> look at the forced expulsion of Muslims by Russians, with aid from
> Armenians, in the parts of the Ottoman empire which they conquered. The
> numbers are well over a million people. This was used as justification
> by the Young Turks for the expulsion of the Armenians.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Stor
> Copycats
> New York, NY
> 212-557-2111 x20
> www.copycats.com
>
> Dan Huntingford wrote:
> > ***** This is a PrintOwners List Message *****
> >
> > My 12 year old daughter was telling us about a book she read for her
> > school LA/SS class last night a dinner,  that's language arts/social
> > studies. Called "Forgotten Fire" about a boy who survived the Armenian
> > holocaust. She was practically in tears as she talked. "Everybody
> > died," she said. "Everybody. It was so disturbing."
> > My wife said "What?"
> > While I said, "Oh yeah, that's what Hitler used as his model."
> > And little Em threw out some quotes from Hitler from the book.
> >
> > Anyway, thanks to the list, I wasn't totally clueless about it.
> > And some schools are teaching about it.
> >
> > Dan Huntingford
> > SOS Printing
> > 2319 Washington Street
> > Port Townsend, WA 98368
> > sos at olympus.net
> > (360) 385-4194  Fax (360) 385-5860
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > PrintOwners Discussion List
> > Post: PrintOwners at printweb.org
> > Info: http://rb.enter.net/mailman/listinfo/printowners
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> PrintOwners Discussion List
> Post: PrintOwners at printweb.org
> Info: http://rb.enter.net/mailman/listinfo/printowners
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> PrintOwners Discussion List
> Post: PrintOwners at printweb.org
> Info: http://rb.enter.net/mailman/listinfo/printowners
>
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2574 (20071005) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>

Steve Blatman
Ink Spot Printing & Copy Center, Inc.
14 Church Road, Frazer, PA 19355 USA
Tel: 610-647-0776
Fax: 610-647-4560

_______________________________________________
PrintOwners Discussion List
Post: PrintOwners at printweb.org
Info: http://rb.enter.net/mailman/listinfo/printowners